CARB ICING  

Following the growing reports of misfiring SV’s and Carb Icing, owners were asked to forward their experiences to SV650.org. The following information is based upon those replies and applies mostly to UK riders, however some information is relevant to all SV’s, so if you have a problem read on.

If you have or are thinking of buying a Parallel import then make sure you read on!

Many thanks to all the owners who emailed in – any further problems, updates or if you need advice etc, please contact Lynjed@aol.com and I’ll see if I can help. Please do not contact Kev at webadmin – he has enough to do!

Also the usual disclaimer – if the following mod’s blow your bike or wallet to bits its your fault not ours! 

Before deciding that your SV is suffering Carb Icing, all other forms of misfiring must be investigated to see if they affect a cure.

All the following were sent in by owners, with mixed results as to whether the bike was cured.

If your bike misfires/ runs badly as a matter of course regardless of weather conditions: -

1 – Check the front manifold for the carburettor – rare but a few owners discovered this had worked loose or the rubber had split. This leads to an air leak resulting in constant poor idle or backfiring / popping back.

2 – Check the choke valves or cable have not seized due to water corrosion. This is very common and can manifest itself within weeks on a new bike. Water settles in the choke lever on the handlebars, proceeds down the cable and onto the operating mechanism. The result is a sticky choke valve (again usually the front) that causes rich running and a constant misfire.

There is no cure, but you can alleviate problems by allowing oil to filter down the choke cable, as well as filling the handlebar mechanism with grease.

Some owners reported that dealers had found water in the carburettors and had blamed the ingress on the choke valves saying water had passed though into the carburettor body. This is very dubious advice. Suzuki uses a valve mechanism, which has numerous seals to stop water progression, and more importantly keep air from leaking in. If water could enter, then air would fly in and make slow running a complete disaster.

It has been noticed that any water that gathers on the choke valve slides causes a sticky gum that works itself inside the first seal as the choke is pulled in and out, but this is as far as any water ingression got. Regular oiling of the valves keeps this at bay.

3 – If your SV sounds different / louder under the airbox and motor power is down or hesitant around midrange, then check the rubber between the carb and the airbox has not come away – usually the front carb. It can part from the carb’s side (usually seen when viewed from the side) or can part from the airbox side (impossible to see – but when removing airbox the offending rubber will stay on the carb).

Symptoms are a perfect idle and low end, terrible power loss at 5000 to 7000 rpm coupled with a hesitant roll on throttle. Power above 7000-rpm picks back up.

4 - Check the black foam piece that is glued to the underside of the petrol tank, especially the area of the foam that is directly above the air intake. Particularly, pinch the foam in the area above the air intake & check if it pulls down easily. If the foam loosens, it can be sucked down over the air intake (especially at high throttle), blocking the intake and causing the engine to either misfire badly or to flood with petrol and cut out completely. To fix it, your options are (1) Re - Glue the foam, (2) Remove the foam (3) cut out the section of foam above the air intake. Also, see General Discussion, Thread 2737, Subject "Dies at High Revs or Quick Acceleration", for more info. (this addition is courtesy of George Brannick, who discovered this the hard way) (see also http://www.sv650.org/sv_jun01.htm)

If your bike misfires under damp conditions: -

1 – It is quite apparent that early SV’s have dodgy front plug caps and H.T. leads. (We have read of reports of recalls in some countries over this – alas all unconfirmed).

Most owners find that the front cylinder misfires and that the plug soon requires changing through clogging. Changing the plug and carefully sealing the cap at the point where it joins the H.T. cable, as well as copious amounts of WD 40 seem to alleviate this problem. One owner suggested pulling the wire out of some old electrical flex and then passing this over the HT cable as an extra waterproof cover, which did the trick for him. Also suggested is substituting a thin layer of Wax oil for the WD40, it lasts longer (warm it up before applying or it will become a sticky mess!).

I have sprayed my 2001 SV with a pressure washer direct onto the front cylinder and have suffered no problems – so maybe it’s cured now?

2 - Already dealt with on this site is the water in the fuel syndrome. Please follow the instructions carefully and see if that affects a cure.

If upon reading the instructions you get puzzled then your SV is like mine – all the bits mentioned aren’t there! I can think of 2 reasons for this – Suzuki have changed the tank design for 2001 or my bike being an import is different to UK models in this respect.

Either way the instructions for me where not applicable and again after testing my tank with a pressure washer, no water could be found anywhere in the system. 

3 – Many owners reported it is possible for the fuel hose to develop a kink when dropping the tank back down. A vapour lock then occurs resulting in poor running and a lack of power. This gives symptoms very much like carb icing, i.e.: - you have to park the bike up for 10 minutes to let it cure itself. Although this can happen at any time, most owners report the phenomenon during damp or cold weather.

A few indicated that dealers had cut 1” off the hose in a bid to cure this at Suzuki’s recommendation, although Suzuki did not admit to this piece of advice.

However I have noticed on my own bike that the fuel pipe has a tendency to work itself under the drain elbow at the rear of the airbox resulting in a sharp upward kink and must admit this has led to very poor running – mostly lack of power – so it may be justified to shorten the hose.

It may also be here that water manifests itself into the carb’s, as a vapour lock could result in condensation forming in the pipe which would then progress down into the carb’s and sit in the float bowls. As this would more likely occur during damp conditions, I find this more plausible than the ingress through the choke valve as previously suggested.

(Furthermore bikes whose carb’s ice up could also suffer condensation forming inside the carb’s as they thaw out, again resulting in water being detected inside the float bowls – this is just a theory though yet to be proven!)

4 – Owners in colder climates than the UK suggest adding alcohol based additives to the fuel – apparently this remedy virtually cures all fuel related misfires including carb icing down to reasonable temperatures.

There are many such products on the market but caution must be advised. I know too well the consequences of starting a cold engine with alcohol mixtures – it can be very expensive!  I once blew the top of a tuned overhead cam engine to bits, whilst cold starting by being a bit over generous with the mixings! .

So follow the instructions carefully and never overdose – on your own head be it!

If your bike misfires in winter but is good in summer:-

This will more than likely be down to carburettor icing. (see link to symptoms)

There are two separate issues here for UK riders – whether your bike is genuine UK or if it’s a parallel import.

Genuine Suzuki UK owners: - Suzuki GB states that all SV’s require carburettor heaters for this country’s climate. Furthermore these are fitted at the factory as standard. Some owners are confused, many believing or been told that the heaters are an aftermarket product. Not so – the heaters are fitted to alleviate poor running conditions due to colder climates.

Therefore if you have a genuine UK bike, it has heaters fitted. – So why does it misfire?

Of the UK owners who replied and had the problem investigated by a dealer, all had found the problem to be one of two things.

1 – The heaters or thermostat that operates them had packed in. These were replaced under warranty.

2 – More commonly, the thermostat that operates the heaters required moving to the front of the bike, as heat from the engine confused the stat into believing the air temp was much higher than it really was.

Suzuki GB actually made note to both problems in their reply.

Most owners reported that the bike improved considerably after either rectification was carried out, although the majority stated that the bike still ran worse in winter than summer, persisting with the odd misfires.

The trouble is the quality in dealerships in recognising either problem. Some very big name Franchise dealers performed poorly. The few good ones knew what to look for straight away, whilst the vast majority stumbled about with bikes returning time and again with the same symptoms.

Believe it or not more than one dealer sent in an email asking what the problem was!

So if your bike still runs like a lemon – ask the dealer if they checked the two items above and if not suggest they do!

If you are having it serviced then get them to check the heaters at the same time – that will sort it for next winter.

If you are still not happy, then see the legalities section.

Parallel import owners: - If you bought your SV as an import, or are thinking of buying one then be aware that carburettor heaters are unlikely to be fitted as standard. This is because the bikes original destination is deemed not to require them by Suzuki.

All parallel owners who contacted, had experienced carb icing or poor running – remember Suzuki GB fit them as standard for the UK market.

The importer or dealer you purchased the bike from is responsible, not Suzuki GB, so complain to the right people!

So far all owners who had returned with complaints to these importers, have had heaters fitted, free of charge (or fitted free whilst the bike was serviced), with no hassle.

Four owners who had struggled with poor running actually returned their bikes as a direct result of the info on SV650.org and got them the fixed.

So if you are thinking of buying a parallel SV, insist the heaters are fitted from new!

Don’t be put off buying an import. I have two Suzuki bikes, one a Genuine GB DR350, the other an imported SV650s. After the DR experience, in my own case I will never own a genuine Suzuki GB machine again – enough said!

If you bought your bike second-hand, how do you know if it’s genuine or imported?

A genuine UK bike has both headlights illuminating on low or high beam. The imported ones usually only have one headlight illuminating at once. That’s the SV650s covered – anybody out there know how to distinguish the plain SV models apart?

The dealer problem: -

Whether your bike is UK or parallel, if you bought it second-hand then the problem worsens, especially when they are not Suzuki franchises. These dealers are probably unaware that the SV even has heaters, let alone bother to check them. Again if your second-hand SV is poorly, you may have to tell the dealer you bought it from, of the suspected problem. If still under warranty, then take it back to a franchised dealer or the importer in the case of parallels.

In extreme cases you may be lumbered with a bike that is out of warranty, or you cannot find the original importer in the case of a parallel. In this case you could try the alcohol based additives to relieve the symptoms, but at your own risk. Or you could have the heaters fitted or repaired. Suggestions are that the heaters cost around £120 plus fitting, but I am trying to confirm this.

Is it worth it? – Yes, since the heaters were fitted to my SV, the bike runs perfectly, which after 3 months of daily frustration is a godsend.

Everything is working but the bike still misfires?:_

Some UK owners (interestingly, all converted parallel owners were satisfied! – bigger pilot jets over UK models, I think) still felt the SV ran worse in winter despite everything checking out, so where do you go from here?

First of all before you can complain you must let a dealer try to fix the bike.

If this fails then you are probably faced with legal action or at least threatening it.

Please bear in mind this is general advice in a legal minefield, but is offered for consideration by yourself – no responsibility for SV650.org please!

Legalities

1 – Trading Standards – every county has one – dead easy to contact.

In the case of parallel dealers, you might get them on inferring a parallel bike is just that – a mirror of a UK bike. The lack of heaters would be a Misdescription of a motor vehicle.

2 - Any dealer could be had under Unroadworthy vehicles, as it is an offence to sell or offer to sell a motor vehicle, which is in an Unroadworthy condition. The bike would fall into this category under “Construction”, as lack of heaters or heaters that had failed or even a misfire, make it dangerous to ride in winter. Any vehicle that causes danger to the driver or passengers is subject to investigation.

3 – Lawyers advice - By purchasing a motor cycle, you have in fact bought a vehicle. If such a vehicle is only reliable for 8 months due to constant poor or dangerous running, for the 4 months in winter, then it is an implied term of your contract with the seller that the goods would be fit for its purpose (s.14 Sale of Goods Act 1979 (SoGA)) and would correspond with its description (s.13 SoGA).

We believe that on the information you have provided the goods were not fit for their purpose.

If the bike was describe as having the heaters then there would additionally be a breach of the implied term (parallel owners only this paragraph) that it would correspond with this description.  

In these circumstances you a buyer may be entitled to treat the contract as terminated, reject the goods and sue for the purchase price.

The right to reject the goods may be lost in some cases where the buyer retains the goods for such period or puts the goods to such use that it can be inferred from that conduct that the contract has been affirmed.  In these cases the buyer’s remedy is restricted to a claim for damages (e.g. the cost of repairs or of rendering the vehicle fit for its purpose).

We believe that in your case you have lost the right to reject. (This would apply to everybody, as all parties will have ridden the bike for some time before getting pissed off with it).

You should obtain a quote for the cost of buying and installing / repairing the heaters.  You should then write to the seller stating that it is in breach of the implied term that the goods were fit for their purpose and corresponded with their description.  You should state that unless the seller agrees to pay for the supply and fitting / repairing of the heaters you will commence proceedings in the County Court.

If you decide to bring proceedings for less than £5,000 your claim will be allocated to the small claims procedure in the County Court. 

Phew! Understand that! In simple terms – a bike that runs crap is not a bike  (unless advertised as “bike that runs crap”) and should be repaired!

With all the above in mind, we wrote to Suzuki GB and asked some questions.

The Q & A’s are as follows below, but before that, we suggest that any owner of a genuine GB model of an SV who is not happy with their bike’s performance sends a fax to the following fellow – Mr Paul Withers – Suzuki Customer Services.    You can fax him with your comments on your SV on 0870 6081305.

Go on vent your fury – it will only take a minute.

Alternatively write via, Suzuki Customer Services, PO box 161, Croyden, CR9 1YG.

Letter from Suzuki GB.  (questions in red, answers in black)

I can confirm after consulting my technical support colleagues that the UK model SV650 is fitted with carburettor heaters as standard. I will now address the points you have raised individually. Please understand Suzuki GB is only able to comment on concerns regarding the UK model of the SV650.

1 – Are the heaters fitted to the SV carburettor’s there to alleviate the symptoms of icing? If not what does relieve the icing? What are the heaters for?

A – The carburettor heaters fitted to the SV650 are intended to alleviate the symptoms of cold running difficulties.

2 – In which countries are they fitted as standard? Why do some genuine bikes arrive with them, others not?

A – These carburettor heaters are fitted at the factory production stage for the United Kingdom and other Northern European models.

3 – If they are not fitted as standard – why not? The temperature at which the problem starts could not be described an extreme in any country on the planet.

A – The carburettor heaters are not fitted as standard across the world due to obvious variations in climatic conditions.

4 – Some dealers have retrofitted them free – others have charged. What is Suzuki’s stance given the above confusion?

A- Carburettor heaters have always been fitted to United Kingdom models of the SV650.

5 – If they are chargeable how can this be justified? (back to “fit for the purpose of” – sales of goods act)

A – I am unable to comment on charges levied for the installation of carburettor heaters to grey and parallel imports. (See 4 above)

6 – Has there ever been a recall or update regarding the SV and cold weather running issued by Suzuki to dealers, owners or the press?

A – I can confirm that there has been no reason to issue a recall or service campaign in relation to this issue.

7 – How do owners of bikes now out of warranty stand over the issue of retro fitting of missing carburettor heaters?

A - Retro fitting of Carburettor heaters does not apply to United Kingdom machines. (See 4 above)

8 – If Suzuki are to state that the SV does not require these heaters to run correctly – then please advise what the problem is affecting the SV, so that owners can be made aware.

A – Unfortunately, I am unable to speculate as to the cause of any difficulty with non-United Kingdoms SV650’s. However, as with any difficulty an owner may experience with a Suzuki product, an authorised Suzuki dealer will need to investigate the issue in question and if necessary, based on first hand knowledge of the machine, liase with Suzuki’s technical department for support.
Running difficulties may be attributed to a number of factors such as dirty plugs or caps and particles of dirt or water in the system and it is therefore necessary to complete a full technical investigation.
It is worthwhile to check that the thermo switch is functioning correctly and that it is not being affected by engine heat i.e. too close to the engine, radiator, or warm chassis, as this will prevent correct operation. It may be also helpful to check heater resistance.

Yours sincerely – Paul Withers

This initial reply was to confirm fitment of heaters to UK models. A further letter addressing UK models is now with Mr Withers and is awaiting a reply. This page will be updated as information becomes available.

Owners outside the UK: - We received many replies, the vast majority via UK riders, however owners in Australia, Italy, America, Canada, Germany and Holland, to name but a few, all complained.

The worst offender seemed to be Holland. The bikes just run crap (my parallel was from Holland and that ran crap too!).

We are trying to get information for these riders, but dealing with the official importer in the UK will not get all the answers. First of all you need to contact your official Suzuki importer and ask similar questions to ours. Please advise the answers to the email address at top of page ( oh, go then Lynjed@aol.com).

It is hoped we can then try and offer advice to each country as people request it.

In Holland for example one chap got his heaters fitted free of charge, he was a lonely soul, all the other riders got told to go away. If you know a dealer who is sympathetic please pass on the details and we will list it so other owners can approach them.

We will update this page as and when any more information become available, in the meantime happy riding – SV650.org  (all appreciation and thanks to Jed Lynjed@aol.com for compiling this detailed information)

Regarding my posting in the Forum I have received quite a few number of e mails from fellow sufferers - genuine UK, parrallels, and other countries - so the problem is widespread and many SV owners will be wondering whats wrong with their pride and joy.

Carb Icing :

As the temperature outside approaches freezing, many SV owners report misfiring etc. It appears this is due to the carbs icing up. Symptoms are as follows :- 

Around 5 degrees and the bike starts great but after about 5 minutes (after the choke has long gone) a misfire at idle to around 4000 revs develops. This usually goes away after 15 minutes of running.
Approaching zero and the misfire becomes dangerous as the bike suddenly cuts out below 4000 revs. You will be able to start it but it will juggle from one cylinder to the other, refusing to idle and possibly backfiring. Again it may clear up after 15 minutes of riding.
At zero the bike will not run below 5000 rpm. You will be forced to stop and park up. The carbs take about 10 minutes to thaw out and if lucky the bike will run better after this period.
Below zero and the you will find yourself parking up every 10 minutes trying to thaw the bike out. After 4 attempts it usually clears but misfiring could stay with you the rest of the day. Your throttle may also stick on at around 4000 rpm during the thaw out period. If you have problems, park up for 10 minutes and see if it goes away, 
if it does your bike is one of the affected.

Already I have a few tales of near misses, including myself and it is only a matter of time before serious injury or death occurs. The bike is known to stall at up to 60mph whilst changing gear leaving the rider with the choice of dropping the clutch or coasting to a stop, often in rush hour traffic on freezing roads. Approaching junctions is a nightmare as you try to keep the bike revving at 5000 rpm whilst downgearing and braking at the same time. It's no joke every single morning.

It appears that carb heaters are available, some bikes have them as standard (in which case you will be wondering what the hell I'm on about), some bikes have had them retrofitted. The problem is just that - they seem to be fitted willy nilly. Some owners have put up with this since 1999 and got no response from Suzuki.

So I want to hear from anyone with SV problems in the cold - you may have mistaken the problem to be "water in the fuel" - as it only happens when temps are low.
If enough of us get together, maybe, just maybe we can get something done about the situation - ideally retrofitting of all bikes with heaters - courtesy of Suzuki.

Please send your tales of woe (tales of crashes resulting from carb icing especially needed - more impact in the press etc) to Lynjed@aol.com 

I need your bikes year, and please state if it is genuine or imported. I wont be able to answer all the emails but rest assured I will let you all know how I get on. Good luck Jerry. IF anyone has this sort of problem help Jerry to try to help us by relaying your information to him....